Sex In The Public Square - ethics - Comments

What a healthy discussion.

Kelly — Sun, 02 Nov 2008 22:32:25 -0800

What a healthy discussion. Where does fantasy end and reality begin? For those uncomfortable with reality, it might be best to skip the next paragraph and understand it is about crossing lines.

One evening at Toast Master’s the impromptu topic was at what point does an enemy combatant become a prisoner of war and the rules of engagement change? While pondering this question, I was called upon to speak. It was difficult. I did what I knew, spoke from experience, that is the best way to handle an impromptu subject. I recalled many different times when I had to shift, in an instant from using all my skill and instinct to kill to using all my skill to protect. In that instant, I had to stop trying to survive and keep my comrades alive and risk not surviving to save the life of a human being I was just trying to kill. Notice the difference, I went from skill and instinct to skill.

I think a fantasy is like that. It somehow involves instinct. That may not be clear. Elizabeth speaks to moral judgment. Morals are a learned thing. They are a skill. We all have a set of morals that are external. Those are the morals we share as a society. We all have morals that are internal. Those are the morals we share with an intimate few or just ourselves. Those internal morals are somehow more closely related to instinct. Something we hold inside that tells us a thing is Okay or not Okay, regardless of the larger moral question.
Somewhere in that mix of internal and external morals is a line. The question is whether it is permissible to cross the line. Therein, I believe, lies the question of whether there is something we can name, as a general rule, an unethical fantasy. That then raises more confusion. Are ethics and morals related. I think not. It is certainly moral to offer work to someone who needs money to buy food. It is certainly unethical to make that work some demand for sexual favor the person would not otherwise be willing to perform.

I have never found any form of degradation acceptable for myself or others. I know there is a sector that finds degradation acceptable, even desirable. Would I be willing to listen to someone describe a fantasy about such activity. I have to say I would. I would because I think it is healthy for people to be able to talk about their fantasies. I think it is healthy because it allows a person to recognize that there is a fine, nevertheless definite, line between fantasy and reality.

I do not say that I would enjoy the conversation. I do not believe I would be uncomfortable or judge the person. If what the fantasy is that I do not share does not involve me, and if realized, is between people who have reached their majority within the society and is consensual, I have no standing.

This may dodge the question, and it may strike at the heart of the question. There are ‘Stink Pot’ sailors and there are ‘Rag Top’ sailors. Tell me all day about your twin diesels and reversible props. Then let me hoist my sails and reach off on a fair wind. I will not begrudge your love for your rumbling, vibrating, oil slick maker as I tack off a lee shore across your bow. We will both still smile at each other’s passion as we close our respective ‘wish’ magazines, look across the marina at the boats we want to buy someday and share another beer because we are more than the fantasies and know there are lines not to be crossed.

It goes back to the skipped paragraph. Is there such a thing as a fantasy that is immoral or unethical. The answer must lie in the individual. I knew when the rules of engagement changed in an instant and somehow never let the terror and horror of the moment push me over that line. I witnessed, too many times, when that line was crossed. Thus, it is not the idea that is immoral or unethical, it is the person.

I'm not sure I can think of

Elizabeth — Sun, 02 Nov 2008 10:19:43 -0800

I'm not sure I can think of a case where a friend could have a fantasy that would cause me to disassociate myself from that person. Hypothetically I can imagine instances where a fantasy might be to emotionally upsetting for me to listen to that person discuss, but I can't imagine disassociating myself from a person because of a fantasy.

Let me give an example of the difference, from a different point in my life. There was a time, in the few years immediately after I'd been raped, that I could not - just could not - sit through a rape scene depicted in a movie. It was too emotionally upsetting. I didn't want to experience the feelins associated with watching. I did not want the sleepless night and the anxiety and the crying. But I did not morally object to the depiction, nor did I morally object to others watching. I can imagine at the same time in my life I might have been able to intellectually and morally undestand rape fantasies - in fact, now that I'm typing this out I remember clearly sitting in a feminist philosophy class in college and discussing exactly those fantasies without being upset (because it was an intellectual discussion) but I would not have easily been able to sit and listen while someone described a sexual experience based on such a fantasy.

So I guess that while I would agree that my moral responses are likely to prompt related emotional responses, my emotional responses do not necessarily stem from my moral judgements. Does that make any sense?

Emotion vs. Morality -- Not That Clear

Chris — Sat, 01 Nov 2008 16:15:25 -0700

I understand the confusion, Elizabeth, because part of the reason behind the post is that I'm exploring the blurry line between our emotional responses and our intellectual ethos. In point of fact, your emotional response is part of your moral response, and that's what I'm asking: where the inevitable gap between who we want to be and what we are is. For instance, if you decline to associate with someone based on a fantasy, you are invoking a moral judgement, even though you might refuse to make make that judgement a basis for public policy. These moral judgements arising from our emotional reactions do have a great influence on the composition and environment of our sex-positive communities (cf. the Alternet article on race play above), and by extension, our society as a whole.

Emotions v. Morals - request for clarification

Elizabeth — Sat, 01 Nov 2008 10:09:23 -0700

Chris, a really interesting post. I found myself feeling confused at a few points tryng to sort out the difference between my emotional reaction to some fantasies and my moral reaction to the same. I am committed to the idea that no fantasy - so long as it remains fantasy - is immoral. Somehow I can't bring myself to attach moral judgment to fantasy even though I can attach it to beliefs and motivations and actions. But certainly there are fantasies that trigger discomfort and even disgust in me, emotionally. I'm wondering about how you - or others - understand the difference between emotional reaction and moral judgment when it comes to something that is purely fantasy.

Sex in academia

Michael — Wed, 30 Jul 2008 15:03:21 -0700

Once again, one notices a certain prurient interest in that only one sex worker was described in terms of her other ocupation, and that was as a doctoral student. Does one preclude the other?

i agree

tracya — Tue, 29 Jul 2008 16:55:58 -0700

this story has been all over the british press to the point we have heard (over our morning cuppa tea) the details of mr mosleys party

i do not support this sort of journalism...it's all about sensationalism...selling headlines.

funny that now the woman who filmed the scene is apologizing

my lesson learned? no cameras!!!