Sex In The Public Square - aging - Comments

Wait, there's more.

otispdriftwood — Mon, 17 Dec 2007 16:41:16 -0800

Katherine and I were most pleased to be seen in public. I was with her when I was not at sea; 'three weeks on, three weeks off-Good God, Man! A girl needs a rest!' Her house had been inherited from her father decades before; she was the oldest of eight, it turned out, but they were in Australia, The United States and Ireland. It was on a spit of land, with the sea on three sides. I remember when it occurred to me that she had spent the better part (I should say the Lioness' share) of the last four decades, surveying all that she owned, naked. God, what A Thought.

Well, on the morning of January 12 of that year, 25 years to the day, and a day, after my birth, I was struggling to get a few minutes of sleep. Someone had gotten it into her head that what I really needed for my birthday was a night without sleep, a night with Katherine's undivided attention. I was largely unable to move. But there was a short (tiny) aged figure, the color of my wallet, every hair white or stained by it's proximity, nudging its foot into my head.

'Get up, Fuckie!' She liked to call me Fuckie. I had forgotten that the last two survivors from her youth that she had known in Ireland were coming to dinner that night. It meant clothes, but not right now. Right now, it meant work.

It was a winter's day in the tropics. The air was 78, the breeze strong. Massive clowds tore across the sky. plunging us into chills, soon relieved by the returning sun. We made for the beach, K with a net bag for conch, and me with a trident for lobster. It was a roiling surf that we plunged into, each on their own mission. Finally, we sputtered to the surface, Katherine with four good sized conch. and a lobster on my spear, so big that it looked like it needed license plates.

On the beach, I noticed how chilled she was. I put my arm around her, and at moment the Devine took her arm and swept away the clouds, both warming and illuminating us in the moment's perfection.

Katherine Murphy

otispdriftwood — Sun, 16 Dec 2007 11:31:12 -0800

The year was 1973. I was a second mate on a schooner sailing the Bahamas. A big boat, 286 feet long, four masts. Years later, she went deep off of Hounduras in Hurricane Mitch; it was like finding that an old lover had died. I grieved for months. Pls do not allow me to get ahead of myself. (will willingly submit to a sound breast-whipping if I do it again).

The Bahamas had recently become independent from Great Britian, and was going through 'the change'. The British American Hotel was a fine place to place your feet on the balcony rail and sit under the ceiling fan, drinking 25 cent St Paulis, as long as you didnt mind the passersby below looking up your skirt.

I was on my way there, following a woman with an exceptionally eye-sweet transom. She suddenly turned and sed

'Look here, Fuckie, why are you followin' me?

Well, it was Katherine, and her face revealed 50 years of fine Irish skin that had lived in the sun. Not what I had expected. I sed,

'Well, I was hoping you would accompany me to the BA for some..'

"Some what? Some T & A? Get it? T & A at the B & A? Ha!'

'Sure, why not?'

So we retired to Montgomery Place, and the Hotel. We kicked the empties and the magnolia branches off of the balcony and sat down. What unfolded was the tale of action and adventure, courage and bravery, lust and romance; the tale of how K had shown up when she was my age, and lived there through the end of prohibition, through hard times, through a war, through the arrival of tourism as a way of life, and into a life where menopause was a distant memory, as were men; they were all dead or beheath the ability to imagine an evening with such a strong, self-determined, sexy, vibrant, saggy and wrinkly and old, darling self of a beautiful woman who had lived where allegedly tougher guys had been too afraid to ever go. What was to begin was the sleighride of my early life.

There is more.

Your turn. Where are you, who are you, what are you about?

Welcome, Otis!

Elizabeth — Sun, 16 Dec 2007 07:16:18 -0800

I admit to being very curious about all kinds of things based on that quick story. I'd love to know how you met, what drew you together ....

I hope you're enjoying SitPS. We'd love to hear more from you!

eldersex

otispdriftwood — Sat, 15 Dec 2007 18:23:36 -0800

I spent my 25th birthday in the arms of Katherine Murphy. She was 78. She was a sexy, sexual, vibrant woman who loved me as completely and as deeply as I loved her. I was the luckiest man on earth.

challenged, not offended

Elizabeth — Mon, 10 Dec 2007 17:45:01 -0800

I think these images are challenging -- not at all offensive. Challenging because in my culture anyway we pretend that older folks have no sex drives and we fetishize youth to such a degree that women especially are encouraged to spend tons of money on surgery and anti-aging products so that they will retain their attractiveness.

Challenging because the only bodies we tend to see portrayed as desirable are young ones. And challenging because the aged are ridiculed way more often than they are lauded.

I recently overheard a colleague of mine teaching a social work class on working working with the elderly and when she addressed the fact that the elderly have sex lives and that those sex lives need to be acknowledged by social workers who are working with them, I could hear from across the hall the squeamish giggles and the "eww gross" shrieks. They were profoundly uncomfortable even acknowledging that elderly folks have sex.

I've said before that i don't think we need less sex in advertising but that we need a wider range of sexuality and beauty depicted in advertising. I'd say this Virgin campaign is certainly doing that. It seems to present these couples in a way that makes it hard to laugh at them or ridicule them. They are clearly presented as happy and ordinary, not as clownish or freakish.

relief!

tracya — Fri, 23 Nov 2007 14:01:00 -0800

PHEW...i was worried she was my mother!!! i have over the years begun to feel, although it's never been discussed, that my mom has quite a strong libido. i wonder if that could be a genetic thing or whether it is social conditioning?? or both?

Welcome Supercrone

Elizabeth — Thu, 22 Nov 2007 15:39:05 -0800

Welcome, Supercrone! And for those who would like to take you up on your invitation, here is the link to Supercrone's Gather.com space:

http://supercrone.gather.com

It certainly is an interesting space!

(Supercrone is Dame Ruth, aka Ruth Dickson, who wrote "Married men make the best lovers," a bestseller back in 1967 and whose new book is called "Life, Death and Other Trivia" and can be found on Lulu.com.

Invitation

Supercrone — Thu, 22 Nov 2007 09:53:51 -0800

As the author of the above-mentioned blog (as well as eight books, six of which are sex-based) I would like to invite you all to visit me at both wordpress and Gather.com for more outrageous opinions and observations of a shameless octogenarian.

82 year old woman and a rabbit

tracya — Thu, 22 Nov 2007 08:28:59 -0800

i just found this blog....absolutely amazing and inspiring!!!

http://supercrone.wordpress.com/2007/11/20/sex/

sex!!

Now that I have your attention, what I really want to talk about is…. sex. I’ve discovered that, contrary to popular opinion, the carnal urge does not decrease with age. Even after a quad bypass, raging emphysema, sags and wrinkles where once there were lithe curves, I’m as lustful now as I was forty years ago

response from mimi of 'sexagenarian and the city'

mimi of Sexagenarian and the City — Mon, 19 Nov 2007 15:03:12 -0800

i haven't read the book, just the review on this site, so am chiming in just to add my two cents (actually it's more like ten dollars).

between the ages of 59.25 to 60.25, i dated 26 men, all met on two internet dating sites.

-- none of the men was an alcoholic, none was younger than i, none was creepy.

-- they were mostly pretty wacky & eccentric, which is why they made great blog material. one of them remains a friend.

-- i was picky about dating and picky about sex.

-- before i met my boyfriend, five months ago (and 367 days after i started dating), i only had what could be called a 'relationship' with one of the other 25 men, and he's the one who's still a friend.

-- so i would say i had pretty good luck, but then, i was fairly single-minded in my pursuit of a partner (though i was working fulltime and still am). i didn't join an exercise club or start an exercise program; i just walked a lot. i didn't dye my hair; i just found someone who was really good at blow-drying it. i didn't buy expensive clothes, but i did buy a lot of them (am wearing them all these days, when i don't have time for shopping because my social life is so much better). and with the exception of two men from a nearby city, i met all of them in new york.

-- on my blog, sexagenarian and the city http://sexagenarian07.wordpress.com i talk about why sex with men in their 60s and early 70s is so good (quick answer: they've been married a lot and divorced a lot, ergo they've had lots of experience in pleasing many different women). They are so much better than men in their 20s, 30s, and 40s! Yes, i'm only talking about 3 men total, but they were a great 3.

It would have been fun to have compared notes with Pepper Schwartz while we were both dating. Possibly we could have recycled a few of the men, though it sounds as if our tastes are somewhat different.

NB my boyfriend is almost 71...since the day i met him, i haven't wanted to be with anyone else. for the story of how i turned down sex with the man i dated the day before i met the b/f, see

http://sexagenarian07.wordpress.com/2007/06/28/feast-or-famine-in-the-dating-world-a-final-conversation-with-man-1-and-the-implications-of-global-warming-for-dating-in-new-york/

sorry, i missed this...

tracya — Mon, 19 Nov 2007 08:02:21 -0800

I was working...and a night shift on a sunday no less!!!

I think the comments about privilege being an extra not a necessity of having an exciting sex life past 50 are very true. I think one of the lessons learned with age is to focus on one's own pleasure and less on what anyone else may or may not be doing. after years of wonderful experimentation, one's own particular fetishes and turn on's become comfortable and ingrained.

I don't think it's true that women become more sexual as they age, I think young women who enjoy sex become older women who STILL enjoy sex! They just learn more about their bodies, their responses and gain confidence.

Of course I think it's worth saying that this applies to women who are now in middle age...meaning raised in the 50's-70's. It will be different discussion when today's young women reach middle age, I would guess they may have different issues...

Welcome, Pepper Schwartz!

Elizabeth — Sun, 18 Nov 2007 18:42:00 -0800

Pepper Schwartz, welcome to Sex in the Public Square. I'm so glad you are joining us for a few days!

I'm also glad that you picked up on Jeff Rosenfeld's remark about privilege. We as writers or academics or people of means can have access to locations for adventure (or just the leisure time to enjoy adventures) that other people are much less able to access.

Yet your larger point seems so important. Regardless of means women create satisfying and exciting sex lives in their fifties, sixties, and beyond. Those women have often been made invisible by mainstream American culture, and I hope that in this conversation we can shine a spotlight on them for a bit.

That brings me to a question I had for you: In Prime you are very explicit about some of your own sexual adventures. How have your students or your colleagues responded to that level of personal disclosure? It struck me as particularly brave and very uncommon in the writing of academics about sex. We so often remove ourselves from the story. Yet in Prime your own story is at the center. How has that felt for you?

Prime

Dr.Pepper — Sun, 18 Nov 2007 18:23:40 -0800

This is a wonderful review of my book and I am honored and grateful, I would , however, like to say a few words about privilege. For the record, most of the adventures in this book could be had by any woman of any class. I don't think the larger message should get lost: that women can create adventure, romance and sexual satisfaction in their middle years-- and they hardly have to go to Bali to do so. (In fact, I did not have any adventures in Bali- I went there to write the book- not to be with someone.) Furthermore, the main place I stayed in Bali was sixty five dollars a night- pretty reasonable for almost any one compared to most hotels. I was a guest of the fabulous Aman resorts because I was writing this book and also a travel book ( Perfect Places for Passion-- working on it now!) and they are indeed fantasy places that only people of means can stay in ( and travel writers). But my great luck at staying in them has nothing to do with my larger message - enjoying our sensuality and sexuality all of our lives, and especially in our fifities, sixties and beyond! Pepper Schwartz

women's middle age dating stories

Elizabeth — Tue, 16 Oct 2007 18:33:07 -0700

TracyA, I'd love to hear more of your stories. Do you keep a blog related to those experiences? One of the things I'm finding so valuable in women's blogging these days is the way that their blogs really add to what we know now about subjects that just didn't get talked about much before. Like, for instance, middle aged women's sexual experiences post-divorce, or sans marriage in general.

By the way, Pepper Schwartz is going to be visiting here soon to talk about her book. We'll be doing that either in the comments here, or in a separate forum set up for the purpose. I hope you'll join in that discussion! Perhaps you have questions or stories you want to share with her :)

i volunteer to write...

tracya — Tue, 16 Oct 2007 07:40:00 -0700

reading this review, reminds me of my own journey through the post divorce middle age dating scene.... personal ads looking for love and/or sex, online chatrooms, online dating, anonymous meetings...

Dr. Pepper Schwartz writes with the best of intentions. Prime is perhaps one of the most heartfelt and honest attempts to help women understand that midlife can be – perhaps has to be – the sexual prime of life. In this respect, Prime deserves the same praise as Betty Friedan’s Fountain of Age (Simon & Schuster, 1993) Friedan’s agenda was similar to Pepper Schwartz’s. Years ago, she reminded her readers that old age should be anadventure. Prime is significant because it gives older women the hope and confidence they need to make their lives sensual and lush.

i volunteer to write the working class version of prime, it would not include massages in bali but it would be as erotic and life transforming. mine ends in a very comitted relationship with the man who started out as my master 5 years ago.

albeit in a cold, rainy foreign country...