Be heard on the issues that matter most to you!
...because public space really matters!
Elizabeth
I'm not going to tell tales out of school, but the issue has arisen in our household.
We've managed to hammer out a solution fairly recently, though it remains to be seen how well it works.
In the abstract, no, it makes no sense whatever to set an arbitrary age limit at any age at all. Different adults are different, and so are kids. Joe Matureboy is going to be ready for things in life before Sara Whineypants, who is the same age. Not just sexually explicit images, just anything.
As far as specifically sexually explicit material...
Legality aside for a moment, I'm not entirely convinced that there should be any minimum age or even maturity level at all. I think by the very act of assigning any minimum age/maturity level to sexually explicit material we are without cause conceding that sexuality is inherently harmful. Is this the case? Is there any scientific data to show this, or is this merely a vestige of medieval church-dictated "morality"?
To the best of my knowlege, this is nothing more than "everybody knows...", when in fact there are many, many things that "everybody knows" that are completely in error, and without any basis in reality.
Feel free to read whatever's left of my own thoughts at Crowded Head, Cozy Bed
The Boy in JanieBelle's head
...about the nature of the solution you hammered out, though perhaps you wouldn't like to describe it in detail. I'm also curious -- maybe even more curious -- about the way that you hammered it out. What was the process like? Who was involved? What were the factors that needed considering? Given your sense that these things must be done on a case by case basis if they are to be rational I'd be curious also about whether your solution is a household solution or a kid-specific solution.
Age laws are arbitrary and automatically going to be weak as a result. As you said, what one person is ready for at 18 another person might be ready for at 15 and another not ready for until 25. I've known some very mature 17-year-olds and some very immature 24-year-olds. What are the markers you look for to know if your own teens are ready for different kinds of experiences?
...because public space really matters!
Elizabeth
so it was time to discuss it, really. I didn't have a plan of "when this happens, I'll know it's time" or "when the kids .... then it'll be time".
The browser history of the laptop was brought to my attention during a pitched electronic battle to remove a spammer's zombie trojan.
My rules of the house are pretty simple really.
1. This is an anarchistically inclined dictatorship.
2. Everyone is free to do anything they want, as long as that doesn't interfere with anyone else's right to do what they want, and reasonable peace and safety are maintained.
3. There are no other rules unless they become necessary.
4. No phone after 9:30 because that violates rule #2 for those in bed.
5. Do your homework or die.
6. Lying to parents is also a death penalty offense.
7. Hateful words will not be tolerated, and cuss words in moderation and not in front of Mom.
8. Anyone getting one more damned virus/worm/trojan from MySpace, Yahoo, any game or porn site, will be executed with extreme predjudice. This is a violation of my rights under rule #2 because I have to take time to fix it, and now I'm on several spammer black lists and can't comment at BadAstronomy for the time being because of it.
9. Relax. Life's too short to be that serious.
10. Rules are made to be broken, but there will be consequences, so think carefully before breaking them.
So to answer your question in as many words as possible, it came up so it was time to address it. I've rarely needed to go out of my way to introduce a conversation about sex or sexuality in my home, because I've always been frank and open about it, and that encouraged the kids to be open and frank about it.
Even the dinner table is not off-limits to open discussion of sex or anything else for that matter, much to the chagrin of some of our dinner guests. (I think sometimes the kids do go out of their way to bring up such things in front of other people just to see them squirm - I don't mind, I find it equally amusing. My house, my rules, behold the door. Pop-Pop (my dad) is a frequent target of this mischief, although he's growing accustomed to it, so it's losing its attraction for the kids.)
So when I saw where the latest malware originated, I simply yelled "YO, GET YOUR BUTTS IN HERE!" and then proceded to educate them about the dangers of inadvertantly downloading malware from porn sites.
They said "OK", we went about our life. NBD.
It's not like I'd be able to stop them from seeing naked people even if I were concerned about it. I'd only attach an enticing stigma to it, which seems like a really dumb idea anyway. I keep pretty good tabs on the browser histories and cookies because I'm the only one not too lazy to clear them, and truth is porn sites rarely show up. I'm usually amused more by the uh... subjects and themes... of the particular porn sites that show up than I am concerned about the number or frequency of them.
Feel free to read whatever's left of my own thoughts at Crowded Head, Cozy Bed
The Boy in JanieBelle's head
They sound a bit like my rules for the classroom (though porn and spam don't come up very often there, viruses do!)
It's interesting to me that your conversation about online porn came up because of the unintended consequences of viewing the porn, and not because of the viewing or the material itself.
I'm curious about whether there are kinds of porn you'd object to your teenagers looking at. You stated that the 'subjects and themes' amuse you, so clearly you are not concerned so far. Is there anything they could look at that you'd object to on the basis of the imagery itself? And if you objected would your strategy be to ban it altogether or to talk it out with them, or some other approach?
I'm so glad to have you here, Lou! This discussion about parents and teens and behavior and development is really helpful!
...because public space really matters!
Elizabeth
:)
I'd really rather not have either the Department of Homeland Security or the Department of Human Services knocking down my door to "rescue" my kids, so with that in mind let me state for the record that I have now admonished my teenagers to obey all federal and state laws regarding the underage viewing of pornography.
Now, with idiot laws and intrusive and medieval attitudes toward sexuality out of the way, let us move on.
Let me start with the last question first - were I to encounter something that bothered me to the point of parental objection, my strategy would be discussion, information, and education, rather than banning. I find it to be infinitely more effective thus far in my child-rearing experience with my two particular children. Every child is different of course, as they are people like any other people, just lacking in size, education, and experience.
As to the prior question, it hasn't come up yet (no pun intended), so I'm not sure that I could accurately and honestly answer that. Context might or might not make a difference. Obviously pictures of an actual rape found at "forceherdown.com" I would find objectionable, while those exact same pictures found at "helpstoptortureindarfur.org" while doing research for a school or activism project would be a different matter entirely. (I have no idea if either of those sites even exist, they are hypotheticals for our purposes.)
Off the top of my very weary head, my two big issues would be with violence and/or lack of consent. And again, context might make all the difference.
I'm glad to be here, the girls have been pestering me for a while to register and comment. I keep reminding them that they have to actually surrender the computer etc. for that to happen, so I'm unwilling to take all the heat here.
They can be a little exasperating sometimes, but they're good girls. (Note: final clause of previous sentence added under extreme duress.)
:)
Feel free to read whatever's left of my own thoughts at Crowded Head, Cozy Bed
The Boy in JanieBelle's head
My rules of the house are pretty simple really.
1. This is an anarchistically inclined dictatorship.
2. Everyone is free to do anything they want, as long as that doesn't interfere with anyone else's right to do what they want, and reasonable peace and safety are maintained.
3. There are no other rules unless they become necessary.
4. No phone after 9:30 because that violates rule #2 for those in bed.
5. Do your homework or die. 6. Lying to parents is also a death penalty offense.
7. Hateful words will not be tolerated, and cuss words in moderation and not in front of Mom.
8. Anyone getting one more damned virus/worm/trojan from MySpace, Yahoo, any game or porn site, will be executed with extreme predjudice. This is a violation of my rights under rule #2 because I have to take time to fix it, and now I'm on several spammer black lists and can't comment at BadAstronomy for the time being because of it.
9. Relax. Life's too short to be that serious.
10. Rules are made to be broken, but there will be consequences, so think carefully before breaking them.
i wish i had them when i still had a few more teenagers at home. two of mine have flown the coop and seem to be coping ok...they have very few questions about sex but i don't think they would be uncomfortable about asking. i'm a nurse so i get the occasional call about a friend who is so drunk they can't wake him up...my response...is he breathing???
your sig line.
Classic quote there, I'll have to remember that one.
Feel free to read whatever's left of my own thoughts at Crowded Head, Cozy Bed
The Boy in JanieBelle's head
You have an advantage over most of the kids your age. You've had a pretty good (I hope, anyway) sex education, so you're seeing things through a different lens than they are.
(Again, let me reiterate that my children have been admonished to obey all state and federal regulations regarding the underage viewing of pornography.)
The internet can be a great place for acquiring information, but I don't suggest getting it from porn sites. What you might hypothetically see there isn't exactly the way sex works in real life. Remember that just like in any other form of video entertainment, it's scripted and rather contrived, and you won't get good real-world information there.
(Plus, THEY ARE NOTORIOUS FOR COMPUTER VIRI. Just a friendly reminder.)
SitPS however, is a much better place to look, and you can always ask for good reference material if you'd rather look on your own.
Feel free to read whatever's left of my own thoughts at Crowded Head, Cozy Bed
The Boy in JanieBelle's head
i agree with louFCD...the porn that is accessible to teens is just not going to provide any guidance or support. in fact i would think it was more damaging, making young people doubt their bodies and feel insecure/inferior.
i don't think i could have ever felt,as a teenage girl, i could compete with porn stars. i think there are lots of good blogs, websites showing real life experiences but they are slower, subdued and may require reading...a teenager is going to go for the DDD tits and 10 inch cock every time.
the dutch have been held up as the gold standard of teenage sex education.... they start early, it's open and honest, involves parents, and ties everything together with respecting yourself and your body!
THE DUTCH MODEL
Guus Valk, journalist based in the Netherlands, with additional reporting by the UNESCO Courier.
Early on, Dutch children learn about sexuality and contraception at school. Here, students in Almera, in northern HollandWith the highest use of contraception among young people worldwide, the Netherlands has attracted international attention
How would you react if your boyfriend refused to use a condom? How do your friends feel about condoms? Write down what you think they will answer and ask them if you were right.
This open talk is how some teachers in the Netherlands approach sexuality with students between 12 and 15 years old. Subsidised by the Dutch government, the “Lang leve de liefde” (“Long Live Love”) package was developed in the late 1980s, when Aids became recognised as a threatening health problem. “Aids was an impetus for sex education in schools,” says Jo Reinders of Soa-bestrijding, the Dutch foundation for STD (sexually transmitted diseases) control, which developed the package in consultation with churches, health officials and family planning organizations. “It forced teachers to become more explicit and to discuss norms and values using a participatory approach.”
here's a few more links for anyone who wants to read about sex ed in holland
http://www.teachers.tv/video/12119
i absolutley was not educated like that and neither were my kids....in fact i can't see it happening in the states in general...but it should!!
and don't forget that the dutch have amsterdam...where sex and cannabis are freely available!
porn is there for enjoyment but i don't think it is a way to learn about human sexuality.
it's great to have your teenage perspective kaylaface!!! come to england and we'll hop over to amsterdam to see the giant dildos in the windows!!!
or maybe the condom shop! could you see one of these in walmart??? a condom testing machine
sorry didn't mean to get carried away and turn this into an tourist advertisement just have some time on my hands today!
Wow. I think I should take a trip over there. =] If I do happen to come back to England, I'll give you a yell and we can go check out Amsterdam! =]
Man, That stuff makes me almost ashamed to live in America. ALMOST, though. Haha.
I just wanted to share what I saw on CNN Prime News with Erica Hill. I figured it would fit here. "Provocative new ads for the acne cream Clearasil have parents upset. Erica Hill asks whether they're over the top."
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bestoftv/2007/09/10/hill.raunchy.clearasil.ads.affl
I found the commercials to be funny and smart. I think there are a lot of uptight people out there. This is my first post on the site. Hope it works. Love the site great job.
Here's the YouTube link for one of them.
I have a nasty aversion to the ads CNN video forces you to watch if you want to see the videos, so I won't install the player.
Kisses,
JanieBelle
The confidence commercial gave me a chuckle, but I forgot to say thanks for the link.
How rude of me. Thanks for the link.
:)
Kisses,
JanieBelle
Thank you for adding your links. I hate those ads also. I wanted people to see the big deal CNN was making over the commercials. I always thought CNN was a little looser than that. I would expect that reaction from FOX News.
You're welcome Paul.
Yep, ads suck, FOX sucks, and ads on Fox really really suck. CNN sucks somewhat less, though they too seem to be getting worse about spicing up stories to make news where there is none.
Kisses,
JanieBelle
...because public space really matters!
Elizabeth
Just like that, I lost my virginity? It was just a quick post. My post will be longer next time. I promise.
Thank you Elizabeth. I enjoy reading everything you have to say/write.
Keep up the great work,
Paul
Don't they have pills for that now?
Also, I heard somewhere that you can now be re-virginized, but it involves surgery I think.
Kisses,
JanieBelle
